hhare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare Camp. Kirata Suddhi Dham,Upen,(University Area), Kinshasa, DR Congo.Mob 00243813744835 All Glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga! Dear Isvara Das, Hare Krishna! All Glories to Srila Prabhupada! Thank you for your letter. Please excuse my delayed responce. I was prompted by Shastra's letter. > I also realise we are getting nowhere. I still cannot believe you will accept using a debasing word about Africans for your preaching centers in Africa. I will have to take this up with the ISKCON GBC.< You are surely an educated and soft-hearted gentleman in ISKCON and I am glad you respect the GBC. However your real test a devotee is whether or not you are able to wholeheartedly accept the judgements and mood of the ISKCON Founder Acarya Srila Prabhupada. In this case Srila Prabhupada has clearly defined the word "kirata" and identified it with the African people on many occasions. He has also made it clear that "kirata" also refers to the Nisada, aborigines, black men, Black Africans and bhillas. I am relisting these 9 references below for your and other's convenience. Without giving any solid evidence except your emotions you are repeatedly claiming Srila Prabhupada's use of the word "kirata" is inappropriate by saying it is "debasing" ," very derogatory" "demeaning" " condescending" and an "obnoxious term". But you are not explaining how this is so except that is a bodily designative term. Is a bodily type term derogratory? It depends how it is said, who says it and in what circumstances. If I say you are Indian would that be bad? Moreover by saying this you are strongly implying a criticism of Srila Prabhupada's expertise at word usage. But who are you to say this ? What is your authority? In other words you criticise Srila Prabhupada that he does not know the quality of this "kirata" word like you. You also say openly "Kirata" does not mean "African" when Srila Prabhupada clearly says it does on many instances and also in the word for word meaning in the Srimad Bhagavatam. You also say that using the word "kirata" will be detrimental to African preaching when there is clear evidence that Srila Prabhupada named Nairobi temple "Kiratuddhara" the place for delivering the kiratas or Africans. You also have the pride to decide that "Srila Prabhupada did not ascribe any importance" to this naming of Nairobi temple.How do you know? Were you there? In short it is quite clear that you have unfortunately become puffed up and are speculating like anything. You are proudly superceding Srila Prabhupada's authority. It seems that now you think you know much better than Srila Prabhupada how to write, talk and preach. I am sorry to have put this in writing but it is just not good for an ISKCON member to be so rebellious against Srila Prabhupada as you are. What has happened to your humble devotional attitude? How can you chant the Holy Names in this defiant mood? Please excuse me but it is my duty to remind you with these stern words for your own good and in case you start to pollute others by such talks. > ISKCON as a worldwide organisation should be conducting its preaching endeavors strictly above all bodily designations. Being kiratas, yavanas, mlecchas etc., all have to do with the bodily conceptions of life. Just as you cannot go into the midst of Europeans and proclaim to them, "You Mlecchas, we are here to purify you!", similarly how can you be making such pronouncements calling Africans 'Kiratas' and you are there to purify them. Not to mind the fact that Africans are not Kirata. Such preaching will be counterproductive and its infact not needed. Africans are not looking for such. The present state of Africa is due to the corrupt leaders and the manipulations by the West. But this is material world. We are not to focus on that. We are meant to look forward as a preaching movement of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and see how we can reach out to fellow brothers and sisters to rekindle their eternal relationship with the Lord regardless of their bodily designations.< > So I will be taking this issue of calling a preaching center in Africa "kirata suddhi", and see how the ISKCON GBC will respond.< You have a right to petition the GBC about my taking up Srila Prabhupada's usage of the word "kirata" and my naming other African centres "kirata suddhi" (place for purifying the non-vedic African people) and "kiratuddhara"(place for delivering the Africans) after Srila Prabhupada's own example in naming ISKCON Nairobi. Maybe the GBC will think you are right and Srila Prabhupada is misguided in his word choices and inexperienced in preaching. But I don't think so because the GBC is always intent to follow the authority of Srila Prabhupada as strictly as it can. So with all due respect it is now simply a question of whether or not you can surrender to Srila Prabhupada's authority or not. I am praying that you will and I welcome you to please soon come to Africa and put into practice your spiritual ideals beyond the bodily designations. Of course you won't have to call your own preaching centres "kiratuddhara" if you feel so strongly about it. But the main thing is that you should come soon and help push ahead with the local preaching to please Srila Prabhupada. We need strong spirited preachers like you who see the importance of African preaching. There are many favourable nations like Rwanda, Burundi, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Malawi, Ethiopia, Angola, Nabibia etcetera where there is not even a single ISKCON centre yet and you can have a free hand to start preaching centres in the way you want. When the Africans see your equal vision and love for them they will surely be attracted to Krishna. We don't have to tread on each others toes at all. But if you want I will try and assist you and give you the benefit of my experience. Please excuse me for having to reprimand you, Thank you. Hoping that this finds you well in Krishna consciousness, Your Wellwishing, Mahavishnu Swami PS Important "Kirata" and "African" References. 1) Srimad Bhagavatam 2.4.18 kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah ye 'nye ca papa yad-apasrayasrayah sudhyanti tasmai prabhavisnave namah SYNONYMS kirata -- a province of old Bharata; huna -- part of Germany and Russia; andhra -- a province of southern India; pulinda -- the Greeks; pulkasah -- another province; abhira -- part of old Sind; sumbhah -- another province; yavanah -- the Turks; khasa-adayah -- the Mongolian province; ye -- even those; anye -- others; ca -- also; papah -- addicted to sinful acts; yat -- whose; apasraya-asrayah -- having taken shelter of the devotees of the Lord; sudhyanti -- at once purified; tasmai -- unto Him; prabhavisnave -- unto the powerful Visnu; namah -- my respectful obeisances. TRANSLATION Kirata, Huna, Andhra, Pulinda, Pulkasa, Abhira, Sumbha, Yavana, members of the Khasa races and even others addicted to sinful acts can be purified by taking shelter of the devotees of the Lord, due to His being the supreme power. I beg to offer my respectful obeisances unto Him. PURPORT Kirata: A province of old Bharata-varsa mentioned in the Bhisma-parva of Mahabharata. Generally the Kiratas are known as the aboriginal tribes of India, and in modern days the Santal Parganas in Bihar and Chota Nagpur might comprise the old province named Kirata. Huna: The area of East Germany and part of Russia is known as the province of the Hunas. Accordingly, sometimes a kind of hill tribe is known as the Hunas. 2) Naming Nairobi ISKCON. Srila Prabhupada's Morning Walk on November 16, 1975 in Bombay. Brahmananda: [break] ...robi. You can give a name for Nairobi mandir........................................... Prabhupada: Yes. [break]............. (omitting Prabhupada giving a name for ISKCON Detroit) Brahmananda: ...Vrndavana. Prabhupada: Vrndavana is not black. [break] Kiratuddhara. Brahmananda: Kirata? Prabhupada: Uddhara. Brahmananda: Udha. Udha means? Prabhupada: Uddhara means deliverance. Brahmananda: Okay. "Delivering the kiratas." They might object to that. (laughing) They might object to that. Prabhupada: They might object? Brahmananda: The Africans, if they ask what is the meaning of that, they might object. Prabhupada: No, you can say kirata means African. Actually that is the meaning. Kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkhasa abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah ye 'nye ca papa... Yasomatinandana: Yad-apasrayasrayah. Prabhupada: Suddhyanti. Yasomatinandana: What is this Abhiras? Abhira? Prabhupada: Abhira, this dacoit class. Yasomatinandana: Dacoits. Prabhupada: Just like the queens of Dvaraka were plundered by the Abhira. That's why. Morning Walk -- November 16, 1975, Bombay 3) Srimad Bhagavatam 9.20.31 kirata-hunan yavanan/paundran kankan khasan chakan abrahmanya-nrpams cahan/mlecchan dig-vijaye 'khilan SYNONYMS kirata -- the black people called Kiratas (mostly the Africans); hunan -- the Huns, the tribes from the far north; yavanan -- the meat-eaters; paundran -- the Paundras; kankan -- the Kankas; khasan -- the Mongolians; sakan -- the Sakas; abrahmanya -- against the brahminical culture; nrpan -- kings; ca -- and; ahan -- he killed; mlecchan -- such atheists, who had no respect for Vedic civilization; dik-vijaye -- while conquering all directions; akhilan -- all of them. TRANSLATION When Maharaja Bharata was on tour, he defeated or killed all the Kiratas, Hunas, Yavanas, Paundras, Kankas, Khasas, Sakas and the kings who were opposed to the Vedic principles of brahminical culture.SB 9.20.31 4) Sannyasa Initiation -- Bombay, November 18, 1975 So you are taking this pledge for serving in front of Krsna, Vaisnava, guru, and fire. So you shall be very much cautious not to forget your duty. You have got good opportunity. You are going to Africa to deliver these persons. Sukadeva Gosvami says, kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah, ye 'nye ca papa [SB 2.4.18]. These groups of men are considered very fallen, kirata, the black men. They are called nisada. Nisada was born of Vena, King Vena. So they are habituated to steal; therefore they have been given a separate place, African jungles. That is there in the Bhagavatam. So, but everyone can be delivered. Kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah ye 'nye ca papa. These are known (as) sinful life. But Sukadeva Gosvami says, "There may be others which is not mentioned here." Ye 'nye ca papa yad-apasrayasrayah: "If they take shelter of a Vaisnava," sudhyanti, "they become purified." So you have to become very rigid Vaisnava; then you will be able to deliver them. Sudhyanti. How they can be purified without taking another birth? Yes. Prabhavisnave namah. Because Vaisnava is going to deliver them, by the power of Visnu they become empowered. So practically we have seen last time when I went to Nairobi, so many, these Africans, they are making progress very nicely. They are making nice questions. They are following rules and regulation. So African people, they are not so much sophisticated or so-called civilized to forget God. But if you work sincerely and if you can deliver one person only by your endeavor, then immediately you become recognized by Krsna. Na ca tasmad manusyesu kascid me priya-krttamah. This is the quickest way to become recognized by Krsna, by preaching work. Sannyasa Initiation -- Bombay, November 18, 1975 5) Morning Walk -- March 11, 1975, London Prabhupada: Because from Bhagavata we understand that the black man who was born out of the body of King Vena, he was thief. So he was sent to the African jungle. Yes. And they are still thief. (laughter) They cannot give up their... Although they have got independence, they cannot give up this habit. (Dog barking) "Best friend." Brahmananda: Maharaja Prthu also came from the body of King Vena. Prabhupada: Yes. Brahmananda: So he stayed in India, and the other, he went to Africa. Prabhupada: No, he was the emperor of the whole world. But the jungle part... Somebody... The whole world was known as Bharatavarsa, this planet, nine varsas: Bharata-varsa, Ketumala-varsa, Ilavrta-varsa... the whole universal situation is mentioned, where different lands are there. 6) Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.25.20 -- Bombay, November 20, 1974 kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah ye 'nye ca papa yad-apasrayasrayah sudhyanti tasmai prabhavisnave namah [SB 2.4.18] You can make everyone happy, even the kirata. Kirata means the Africans. They are called nisada. Nisada was born as the son of the king... I forget just now name. Maharaja Prthu's brother. Devotee: Vena? Prabhupada: Vena, yes. Out of the body of Vena. Nisada. So they became thieves. They were, professionally, they became thieves, and they were asked to live in the jungle. So we have got practical experience. So these junglese, they are very much accustomed, however you keep them nicely, they will steal. Nisada. Is it not? (laughs) We have got very practical experience. We are pushing on this Krsna consciousness movement, and we have got experiences, different types of men. So they can also be delivered. How? Yad-apasrayasrayah, if they associate with sadhu. Yad-apasrayasrayah means if they are given the chance of associating with devotees, they can be delivered. Anyone can be delivered. Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah [Bg. 9.32]. Low-born, papa-yoni. Punya-yoni and papa-yoni. Punya-yoni... Yoni means the source of birth. So there are two kinds of yonis, pious and impious. Those who are pious, they are getting chance of birth, in very aristocratic, high family, educated, learned brahmana family. Jnana. Then aisvarya, opulence, riches; education, sruta; sri, beauty. These are the symptoms of pious life. And just the opposite, ugly-looking, born in very low-grade family, almost animal, then no education, no character, these are impious life. So... But the sadhu-sanga [Cc. Madhya 22.83], even by, one is born in low-grade family, papa-yoni, mam hi partha vyapasritya, if one takes shelter of Krsna... Krsna says, "If one takes shelter of Me..." Krsna never denies anyone. Socially, we may deny a candala to enter into my house, but Krsna and Krsna's devotee does not deny. That is the Krsna consciousness. They never, they'll never deny. "Yes, you are welcome. You take also education in the spiritual life. You also become devotee of Krsna." Sometimes we are criticized. But Krsna says, mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah [Bg. 9.32]. He is giving, offering shelter. "Come on. Never mind you are born in low family or impious family. It doesn't matter." Striyah sudras tatha vaisyas te 'pi yanti param gatim. Kim punar brahmanah punya bhakta rajarsayas tatha [Bg. 9.33]. Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.25.20 -- Bombay, November 20, 1974 7) Srimad Bhagavatam 9.20.31 He was very submissive and meek, and immediately after his birth he bowed down and inquired, "Sirs, what shall I do?" The great sages replied, "Please sit down [nisida]." Thus Nisada, the father of the Naisada race, was born. After his [Nisada's] birth, he immediately took charge of all the resultant actions of King Vena's sinful activities. As such, this Naisada class are always engaged in sinful activities like stealing, plundering and hunting. Consequently they are only allowed to live in the hills and forests. PURPORT The Naisadas are not allowed to live in cities and towns because they are sinful by nature. As such, their bodies are very ugly, and their occupations are also sinful. We should, however, know that even these sinful men (who are sometimes called Kiratas) can be delivered from their sinful condition to the topmost Vaisnava platform by the mercy of a pure devotee. Engagement in the transcendental loving devotional service of the Lord can make anyone, however sinful he may be, fit to return home, back to Godhead. One has only to become free from all contamination by the process of devotional service. In this way everyone can become fit to return home, back to Godhead. This is confirmed by the Lord Himself in Bhagavad-gita (9.32): mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah striyo vaisyas tatha sudras te 'pi yanti param gatim "O son of Prtha, those who take shelter of Me, though they be of lower birth -- women, vaisyas [merchants], as well as sudras [workers] -- can approach the supreme destination." SB 9.20.31 8) Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 17.53 When Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu came to Jharikhanda on His way to Mathura, He found that the people there were almost uncivilized and were devoid of God consciousness. PURPORT The word bhilla refers to a class of men belonging to the Bheels. The Bheels are like Black Africans, and they are lower than sudras. Such people generally live in the jungle, and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu had to meet them. CC Madhya 17.53 9) Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 17.54 Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu gave even the Bheels an opportunity to chant the holy name and come to the platform of ecstatic love. Thus He delivered all of them. Who has the power to understand the transcendental pastimes of the Lord? Purport As evidence of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mercy, we are experiencing that the people of Africa are taking to Krsna consciousness, chanting and dancing and taking prasadam like other Vaisnavas. This is all due to the power of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Who can understand how His potency is working all over the world? CC Madhya 17.55 >Dear Maharaja, Dandavats! All Glories to Srila Prabhupada! Thank you for your letter. It's interesting how you have termed the subject of your reply as Srila Prabhupada's authority versus Isvara's. Such terming indicates your low opinions of other devotees. Basically your idea is anyone who is not agreeing to your views is going against the authority of the Founder-acarya. This has been the problem of ISKCON society. We can see around us how the society thrives only on the new comers. Its quite abhorrent to me how you will use such strong words against another devotee, especially someone who has been part of the organisation for a long time and had played some roles in the society pioneerings. Obviously you don't know me. I have been part of the movement since the late 70's, and I am grateful to have been part of the early pioneers of the movement especially in the African regions. This of course is due to the mercy shown to me by Srila Prabhupada. > I think we are getting somewhere actually.I am glad you respect the GBC. However your real test a devotee is whether or not you are able to wholeheartedly accept the judgements and mood of the ISKCON Founder Acarya Srila Prabhupada. In this case Srila Prabhupada has clearly defined the word "kirata" and identified it with the African people on many occasions .He has also made it clear that "kirata" also refers to the Nisada ,aborigines ,black men,Black Africans and bhillas.I am relisting these 9 references below for your and other's convenience.< As I wrote in my earlier letter to you, using the word 'Kirata', to being black Africans is a misnomer. You are bodly using your assertion that Srila Prabhupada had said so, when it is in fact to the contrary. The quotes you provided below are not unknown to me. There are even much more damaging quotes about the Africans than the ones provided by you. Am I supposed to be persuaded by such? One thing we should understand about the scripures and the teachings of the acaryas is there are actions and words which are not to be deliberated upon. Is Srila Prabhupada really conveying a teaching that Africans are such and such, or simply providing some details as some circumstance demand? Such words which might been heard were not meant for the adherents of the sages for repetition. For such repetition can indeed be damaging to both the repeaters and the hearers. Srimad Bhagavatam gave this warning: dharma-vyatikramo drsta isvaranam ca sahasam tejiyasam na dosaya vahneh sarva-bhujo yatha "The status of powerful controllers is not harmed by any apparently audacious transgression of morality we may see in them, for they are just like fire, which devours everything fed into it and remains unpolluted. naitat samacarej jatu manasapi hy anisvarah vinasyaty acaran maudhyad yatharudro 'bdhi-jam visam "One who is not a great controller should never imitate the behavior of ruling personalities, even mentally. If out of foolishness an ordinary person does imitate such behavior, he will simply destroy himself, just as a person who is not Rudra would destroy himself if he tried to drink an ocean of poison." The careless use of Srila Prabhupada's words had contributed largely to present state of massive dissatisfaction among the ISKCON devotees. The example being the women issue. Srila Prabhupada could say boldly to the face of any mundane scholar and scientist that he is a rascal. Are we in a position to say such? The fact is Srila Prabhupada only sees the jiva and not the bodily encasement of the jiva, thus all his actions and utterances were meant for the ultimate good of the living entity. > Without giving any solid evidence except your emotions you are repeatedly claiming Srila Prabhupada's use of the word "kirata" is inappropriate by saying it is "debasing" ," very derogatory" "demeaning" " condescending" and an "obnoxious term". But you are not explaining how this is so except that is a bodily designative term. Is a bodily type term derogratory? It depends how it is said, who says it and in what circumstances. If I say you are Indian would that be bad? Moreover by saying this you are strongly implying a criticism of Srila Prabhupada's expertise at word usage. But who are you to say this ? What is your authority?In other words you criticise Srila Prabhupada that he does not know the quality of this "kirata" word like you.< By your implying that I am criticising Srila Prabhupada's use of words is quite abhorrent. Moreover, Kirata is not a word for a bodily type. The word pertains to the group of people who are jungle dwellers, and are habituated to such habits as stealing etc. Thus Kirata is not word for Africans, just because they are black in complexion. Here in India where I live, majority of the population is black. Will you now be calling them Kiratas? On top of all that, our dearmost Lord Himself is black. In sanskrit, the words "shyam, krsna" mean black. Draupadi's other name is Krsne, because she has black complexion. Of course when ISKCON came to the West, devotees tried to say God is bluish black, but the real literal meaning of Krsna is black. Of course there are deaper meanings provided by the acaryas, that when you combine the two words 'krs' and 'na', it means one who terminates one's material existence. I guess we can now assume that our dear Lord is Kirata because He is black. If that is the case, I am happy to be a kirata-gotra. I think you need to read something about African history. Before the white men came to Africa, there were empires full of cities and towns. You mustn't have heard of empires such as Oyo, Mali, Ashanti' etc. Timbuktu was once an ancient city, full of insitutions of higher learnings and center of major international trade. That was way before the white men came to Africa. If you spend some time reading something about African history, you would not be making assertions that Africans are jungle-dweller Kiratas who are mostly thieves. > You also say openly "Kirata" does not mean "African" when Srila Prabhupada clearly says it does on many instances and also in the word for word meaning in the Srimad Bhagavatam. You also say that using the word "kirata" will be detrimental to African preaching when there is clear evidence that Srila Prabhupada named Nairobi temple "Kiratuddhara" the place for delivering the kiratas or Africans. You also have the pride to decide that "Srila Prabhupada did not ascribe any importance" to this naming of Nairobi temple. How do you know? Were you there? < You first heard of this name from Brahmananda Prabhu through a video, otherwise, you were also not there. It is not a matter of who was there or who was not there, it is a matter of the significance of it. I know Brahmananda Prabhu very well as to his mentality about Africans. I worked with him in the early days in Africa. Even though he was sent to Africa by Srila Prabhupada, he was not really fond of the Africans. As a matter of fact, the real African preaching started only when HH. Bhakti Tirtha Maharaja came and I was lucky enough to be part of the mission at that time. > In short it is quite clear that you have unfortunately become puffed up and are speculating like anything.You are proudly superceding Srila Prabhupada's authority. It seems that now you think you know much better than Srila Prabhupada how to write, talk and preach. I am sorry to have put this in writing but it is just not good for an ISKCON member to be so rebellious against Srila Prabhupada as you are.What has happened to your humble devotional attitude?How can you chant the Holy Names in this defiant mood? Please excuse me but it is my duty to remind you with these stern words for your own good and in case you start to pollute others by such talks.< If you know me very well and my insignificant roles in ISKCON over more than 30 years, you would not be writing such as you have just done above. It's quite unfortunate for this to be coming from a sanyassi. No wonder devotees are leaving in great numbers to other organisations. Probably because of your comfort level, you don't care who leaves or stay. Just for your information, I accepted Srila Prabhupada as my eternal guide long time ago and I will be eternally grateful for what he did and doing for me. If not because of my faith in Srila Prabhupada, I would not be in ISKCON today. >> ISKCON as a worldwide organisation should be conducting its preaching endeavors strictly above all bodily designations. Being kiratas, yavanas, mlecchas etc., all have to do with the bodily conceptions of life. Just as you cannot go into the midst of Europeans and proclaim to them, "You Mlecchas, we are here to purify you!", similarly how can you be making such pronouncements calling Africans 'Kiratas' and you are there to purify them. Not to mind the fact that Africans are not Kirata. Such preachings will be counterproductive and its infact not needed. Africans are not looking for such. The present state of Africa is due to the corrupt leaders and the manipulations by the West. But this is material world. We are not to focus on that. We are meant to look forward as a preaching movement of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and see how we can reach out to fellow brothers and sisters to rekindle their eternal relationship with the Lord regardless of their bodily designations.<< >> So I will be taking this issue of calling a preaching center in Africa "kirata suddhi", and see how the ISKCON GBC will respond.<< > You have a right to petition the GBC about my taking up Srila Prabhupada's usage of the word "kirata" and my naming other African centres "kirata suddhi"(place for purifying the non-vedic African people) and "kiratuddhara"(place for delivering the Africans) after Srila Prabhupada's own example in naming ISKCON Nairobi. Maybe the GBC will think you are right and Srila Prabhupada is misguided in his word choices and inexperienced in preaching. But I don't think so because the GBC is always intent to follow the authority of Srila Prabhupada as strictly as it can. < There are lots of deep thinkers among the GBC members. I am sure many would not agree with you. ys, Isvara dasa. P.S. your citing references below simply portrayed someone who has a pent-up prejudicial ideas of people.<